banding problems

You’re talking down to me like I don’t get, or that these things are obvious. Where is the support team Jon? I emailed inkjetmall yesterday about buying Pictorico Ultra off you and have had no response. I’ve had very little sleep, spent 6 hours on the computer trying to sort this since waking up. This is really getting to me. Plus my family are seeing it and it’s rubbing off.

Nice to see there is no returns policy on the hundreds of pounds of wasted products I’ve bought. Why are there no reviews of this system yet? A single deflecting nozzle wouldn’t cause this trouble with OEM. No offer at replacement ink to help solve the issue either. Just hard luck kid, you aint the first. Brilliant.

Jareth,

I am not talking down to you - and you just wrote me at my Facebook again which I really wish you wouldn’t. Here is where you get support. Today it is Saturday here in Vermont - and we are not open for business. Walker is giving a workshop in Chicago which is the first public presentation of the new Pro system. Dana is at home with family. I even wrote you last night after my dinner. Keith is just a guy - although one of the most knowledgeable guys I know - but he is not affiliated in any way with InkjetMall. He is a photographer in New Mexico that just happens to be one of the best Pt/Pd printers in the world. He’s been through it all for many years and we’re very very fortunate that he does care enough about everyone to help them. So you are getting a level of support that you are not going to get elsewhere - I know that for certain.

I tried to explain to you that you do not have bad ink by explaining what bad ink looks like and how it effects an entire color position. I am sorry that I just did not say “you do not have bad ink”. But, I also am trying to train you to help yourself by educating you on these matters, so that when they happen again you have some idea of what is going on.

I have tried to explain to you that your banding is a result of missing or misfiring nozzles. That although you do not believe one missing nozzle matters, or because someone other than we told you it does not, it definitely does. You need to have a perfect nozzle check before you make a film. Period. So you can not make film without banding right now. And you will not unless you get the jets correct.

I went as far as to tell you that if you install the color carts in the printer and you find you can not use the printer for a day or intermittently over a few days and get a perfect nozzle check - then have the printer replaced by Epson.

I do not think that your ink is old or stale - unless you know something about it that I do not - such as you did not shake the bottles before pouring the ink in the carts - or you are drawing off a bottle which had only an inch of ink in it sitting for a year - then yes obviously you are introducing your own problems.

Because you reported that the banding was obvious on other media - that already eliminated the film and because I thought that therefore obvious - I did not mention the film.

We can not possibly know if your printer has electrical problems or a maintenance issue because it is not sitting in front of us. We have reported on the pics you uploaded and pointed out nozzles.

I assumed that you would be using cartridges that come with instructions that are at least as good as ours which is where we obviously point out that you need to have perfect nozzles. I just now realized that you are not using our cartridges - so whoever sold them to you did not think to add that to their instructions.

Because you sourced your own carts that also puts a new variable into the situation which is cartridge performance and partial head starvation which can show up as bouncing nozzles.

Finally - a guess - but you may have a carriage misalignment which I did not consider before because I thought you had made a perfect neg earlier and this was a problem that was new. You reported instead that this is from the get go. So there is some possibility that even with uni-directional printing (and that should be obvious to you but if not, do not print negs bi-directionally), that the misalignment of the entire carriage is causing this problem.

If it is - it will be less easy to detect in color - but when you print color inks on a hard film - and you know what you are looking for - you will see it. And that too, is a reason to have this printer replaced. With a PRO printer they are checked at the factory. You are the final check on a desktop printer - and what is affecting you would not produce a care in the world for 99.9% of the intended customers of these printers.

I am really not certain what more I can tell you at this point. My support of you is genuine and I do appreciate your frustration as we have all been there at some point ourselves. I am wresting today on my day off with a bad printer sensor.

Hi Jon, I’m sorry. I totally skipped over the post about vetting the printer with OEM inks before going off on a rant. This is a stage that I didn’t perform prior to installing the WN inks. I know you are trying to educate me but certain replies aren’t direct enough.

I will get a replacement set of OEM for this printer and see if I can keep it running without banding. What would you suggest I print to prove to Epson that it does indeed have banding to necessitate a replacement?

I’m trying hard to keep a cool head about it but it’s so hard at this point when I see the ink rapidly dwindling away.

How much ink do I need to fill a cart for an R4800? At the moment I have about 5oml of shade 6/opaque photo black.

If you are saying that a Pro printer is better hardware and checked over by a professional before leaving the factory then I will go this route. That really is the last chance saloon though. You must know how much it pains to spend close to £300 on only a set of refillable carts at this point.
Can I get them cheaper than from IJM? I don’t want to buy a cheaper set of refilliables for you to only tell me later on that they are unacceptable or they will cause me problems. In fact won’t I need two sets or refillables? one filled with flush to get the channels going again?

How will I know what to look for in a used 4800? How will I know it’s not a lemon and that it works well? Surely this is another massive gamble and the reason I bought a brand new desktop machine. If Keith can get it to work well on a 1430 then would another one of these be better? Very difficult to know which way to turn.

I will refrain from posting on your Facebook from now on, but please keep a more watchful eye here. I’m very appreciative of Keith and I respect I’m getting the best help available. I don’t want to show extreme exasperation to elicit a detailed response. You can see from my posts in other threads that I am going headlong into this and am thirsting for it to work. The impatience is down to 2 years of stifled creativity. Will it be worth it in the end who knows?

Good morning guys!

Gareth, you stated above that a single deflecting nozzle wouldn’t cause this trouble with OEM inks. I don’t think that is true, at least not with negatives printed on film. It may be true for prints on paper. This very well might be why I was never satisfied with the negs I made on the 3800 I used to have. At that time I didn’t know to look for these deflections in the nozzle check. When I went to teach a workshop about 2-1/2 years ago at a place that had a 4880, I went a day early to calibrate it for QTR negs with OEM inks. I was astounded at how much better these negs were than what I was getting from my 3800 using the same methodology. I’ll never know for sure since that printer is long gone, but it seems a reasonable explanation that it was caused by a nozzle issue that escaped my notice.

I think it is a good idea to put OEM carts in this printer. Don’t forget to flush it first! BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I confess that I didn’t put them in mine to start with either. I knew I was taking a chance. Guess I was lucky.

It seems there are certain details about the overall situation that are missing from this particular thread. Maybe it’s been discussed elsewhere that I haven’t seen. I’m thinking specifically about printer itself. You mentioned that you’ve been trying to make negatives with Piezography inks for 2 or so, but PiezoDN has only been out since June, so some of that must have been with the earlier system. Were you using this same printer? (I mean this very same printer.) If so, it would be out of warranty. Or is this a newer printer that is still in warranty?

Anyhow, with the OEM inks installed print a bunch of nozzle checks, look at them closely with a loupe, find and circle any and all irregularities. This is going to be your evidence. Make some negatives. If you see irregularities in the nozzle checks, you will probably see banding in the negs. You might want to make the negs using QTR to compare to whatever other method (ABW?) you use.

I really think you have had some bad luck with the printer(s).

Now, I have a question for you! I was looking for a 6-channel purge page to use with the 1430, but only found 8- and 10-channel purges in the Piezography/PiezoDN images. How are you using an 8-channel purge with a 6-channel printer?

Hi keith, will answer the rest when I get back but it allows me to print the 8 channel with a 6 channel printer for some reason. Can’t see a 6 channel flush anywhere. Actually should leave the house and get a festive drink now, need one! Been closeted with the printer for a solid day spitting venom. Will get back to it soon. Appreiciate the extra input! I’ll fill in the grim back story soon!

The other thing I suggest (with this printer) is run a cleaning and let it sit for 10 minutes. Then do a print and see if there is banding.

//

The other thing I suggest is to switch from refill carts to the MyInk capsule/key system (just google 1430 myink capsule and you’ll see the page). Some (not all) 1430/1500 printers perform better with these alternative cartridges. The quality tolerances in the 1430 are incredibly wide. It’s not meant to be a professional printer as it’s sold for 1/3rd of the cost of other 13" printers out there. That means that you may need to get a different variety of cartridge for your particular 1500.

 

http://shop.inkjetmall.com/EasyFill-keys-for-Photo-R1400-R1430.html

http://shop.inkjetmall.com/Empty-My-Capsules-Set-of-six.html

Try the first step first (with full cartridges). If this does not work, try the second step.

Also, make sure you have a bottle set behind your printer. If you ink up the waste pad in the printer it can stop cleaning properly.

cheers from Chicago (on the weekend) from your support team.

-W

 

IN THIS CASE THE 1500 USES DIFFERENT MODEL CARTS THAN THE 1430 and IJM DOES NOT SUPPLY. BUT THE POINT MADE IS THAT IT MAY BE CARTRIDGES. (jon)

Also, please follow the instructions about using Ultra Premium OHP. The ink will most likely run other-wise. We are incredibly clear about this in the introduction and manual and listed requirements for this system. This could totally contribute to banding if wet ink is coalescing on the leading edge of the print-band.

best,

Walker

You can’t know by looking at it, or talking to the owner, or kicking its rollers, or making a single test film.

If your decision were in buying a used car… would you be more comfortable in investing in a

  • used 2005 (4800) Land Rover,
  • or a used 2007 (4880) Land Rover,
  • or a used 2010 (4900) Land Rover,
  • or a new 2016 (4900) Land Rover?
 

yes…I am well aware of the maintenance issues with Land Rovers.

 

 

 

Hey Jon - I’m sure that was a typo and Gareth meant 4900! :smiley: He did mention it in an earlier message too. Your question seems to be suggesting that newer is better, but knowing what we know about head issues on the X900s, I’m not so sure it would be a better gamble than an X880, regardless of the extra channels. It’s a crap shoot either way, especially for anyone without maintenance training or who isn’t inclined to learn. As for me, I like tinkering with machines even if I fail sometimes. I kept that 7600 that I mentioned earlier running well for 10 years, the last 2 or 3 with K7 Carbon (then Sepia) and I knew nothing when I started learning to do serious maintenance on it.

Not to change the subject, but what’s your take on the 6-color purge page thing. Gareth mentioned using an 8-color but I’m unclear how that could work. We print these in calibration mode, right? I thought I remembered doing this back in May pre-release but I can’t find either the file I would have used or a print of it. Maybe I’m dreaming! It would be a useful thing to have though.

Keith,

inkseparation6.tif is part of Roy’s QTR download and is found in QuadToneRIP/ CurveDesign/ Images folder.

 

Thanks for coming in with more suggestions walker. I do appreciate it from a business trip on a weekend. Totally lost track of time in a bleary ink-smeared haze and never noted it was Saturday there. The concept sometimes doesn’t register with me working shifts every weekend. I know I need to be more considerate.

The capsule/key system sounds worth trying
Could this potentially remedy a deflecting nozzle?
Understandably the quality control isn’t as good considering the price of the 1500W.
Head cleanings really don’t seem to be solving the problem at this point though.

I’m noticing some drag on the opaque black channel. So perhaps the media could yet be an issue. Not noticing any running on the OHP film but I see it in the nozzle check on normal printer paper. Will put a picture below.

Keith, well spotted. It was supposed to be 4900, glad you saw that typo because I’m totally unaware of the X900 head issues you speak of. What should be known about them?
So you think a 4880 might be a better choice but both options could be fraught?
I have no maintenance experience but am fully prepared to learn. Anything that helps in future. I should take a keener interest in the mechanics of things than just accepting they work/don’t work.

It seems you are doing well with a 1430, so perhaps I should by another one and fully vet it with OEM carts before installing WN ink. The current 1500W was bought off eBay, boxed and unused. So it’s going to have to be sold on once reinstated with a set of original ink. Highly doubt it can be returned. That deflecting nozzle shouldn’t be a problem for the buyer who is doing just general printing.

The short story is that I’ve gone through 2 R2880s with all manner of persistent blockages, posterization of ink and banding trouble after a few months of it working. That was with the original system.

Jon, thanks for pointing to the 6 channel flush. Will seek it out.

Apologies for being a bit of a cantankerous ass. Getting this working means a lot.

humbly,
Gareth

Hi Jon,

You misunderstood my question. I was not asking about the ink separation file, which I know and use, but rather about a purge file. In the folder Piezography>Images>QTR_Flush_Images there are, along with single channel flush pages (and 2-channel), QRT 8-ink purge and QTR 10-ink purge images, but there is not a 6-ink purge image. I may be mistaken, but I think they are designed in such a way that each stripe is from a single ink channel.

I ended up using the 6-channel ink separation file from the QTR app the other day, since it was the nearest thing I could find, when I really was looking for a 6-channel flush image. Maybe I had used the color one from MIS that I found via Google search successfully before for this, but when I tried it this time I got some really weird stuff.

Anyhow, I just want to suggest that a 6-color version of the file QTR 8-ink purge.tif would be an excellent and useful addition to the Piezography/PiezoDN package, especially since so many of us are using the 1430.

I just added a 6-color flush sheet in the QTR Cal Mode Flush Images zip file, here: http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/content.php?166-Flush-individual-channel-using-QTR-Calibration-Mode

Merci beaucoup Dana!

@gareth. You still need OHP Ultra Premium. Even after you have a perfect nozzle and no banding, any other OHP film will have issues. We actually R&D’d PiezoDN on the 1430, so we validated that if the correct carts and ink and OHP is used, it will work great. But if one variable is out, it won’t.

-W

Thanks Walker, have caused my own problems by deviating and can only blame myself. Can see why it’s so important to read and follow everything thoroughly. Really need to take a calmer, more measured approach. Serenity now.

Certain it will all work beautifully with the right carts/media.

The system is something you’ve all clearly put a huge amount of time, thought and expertise into. It’s absolutely leagues ahead of anything else and am seriously excited its prospects.