Ok Keith, I understand that printers run into mechanical problems and feel your pain. Sounds like you’re had your fair share of bad experiences. Nevertheless this is a brand new machine with freshly installed inks. I can print a nozzle check without gaps and yet the thing is still banding. So far I’ve had no explanation or suggestions here, apart from environmental factors which I’ve ruled out.
The only real suggestions are off Sandy King who said that QTR has more resolution but isn’t as smooth as the Epson driver and that these differences are more pronounced on smaller models like the 1500W
Apart from that he suggested misfiring nozzles (can’t be, no gaps in nozzle check) or head misalignment.
Are you familiar with the process of realigning the heads for this model? I will post a scan of my alignment
below.
I was able to get smooth negatives with OEM inks on my old R2880, yet on the very same printer the WN piezo inks were inconsistent and banding. I showed evidence in this thread.
I thought the problem was the printer but the exact same thing is happening with a new unused machine.
Could buy a larger model printer, which MIGHT solve the banding at more wasted time and expense. Then arises the problem of ink settling and having to ramp up production.
I should have just stuck with OEM and worked out how to make better process adjustment curves. Have sunk so much time and effort into this with less than exceptional results. Pointless having a perfectly calibrated neg that looks like a pair of blinds.
I hope he doesn’t mind me sharing what he said here but this was it…
my experience is that the small Epson printers like the R3000 that I owned, and the 1430, have more issues with banding than larger better made units, and part of the problem may be the QTR driver which may not be able to access some of the functions of the print head that can be accessed by the Epson driver. No question about it, I was able to make smoother negatives with the R3000 with the Epson driver than with QTR (using Epson OEM inks in both cases), and the major problem was light banding with the QTR driver. You may have the same issue.
Albeit I saw that Keith here was calibrating a 1430 here too and I’m wondering if that displayed any of the same bad symptoms. Did it?
Is the problem with using WN ink instead of selenium ink?
Is it a problem of using pictorico premium instead of ultra?
Is it a problem with the QTR driver being unable to access some of the functions of a smaller printer as outlined above?
Is it a head alignment issue?
Does the 1430 have a control for setting media thickness?
[attachment file=26060]
that is a deflecting nozzle printing a level above where it should be with some amount of droplets overprinting the level preceding it. It’s only one but deflection can create havoc and as it wasn’t on your first nozzle check - there is some possibility that you have more than one deflecting nozzle during negative printing.
on the one below from your previous nozzle check I noticed besides the gap you pointed out that this same area had an odd overlapping nozzle.
[attachment file=26061]
so this is occurring on the nozzle check and its unknown what is happening with these 3 nozzles during printing of a neg or if there are others as well deflecting and overlapping.
Bad ink (or old ink) would cause this over the entire channel. That can happen with outdated inks. When intermittent nozzles or very specific nozzles are overlapping or deflecting this usually points to a dirty head but can also point to electronics. And yes these are serious enough to cause banding in Piezography.
Have you tried cleaning underneath the print head with a soft paper towel that is been wetted with PiezoFlush like we do in our video? Do you have soft paper towels in UK? The hard towels are not supple enough to rest against the head when you clean it, as well as can be a little harsh on the head. In the USA we use a regular Bounty towel because they’re soft and absorbent.
First, I want to say that ALL of the suggestions you have been offered here are real. To say otherwise only means that they are things that you don’t want to hear. I suggest not being so dismissive of those who are trying to help you. But I also know how frustrating this is, which is the point of my little story above, so I’ll cut you some slack. I am not employed by IJM, just a satisfied user with a certain amount of expertise, especially in the darkroom. I tend not to get into these conversations unless I think I have something to offer. I’ve also known Sandy for a long time, and have met him in person once or twice, so I’ll respond as best I can to his points.
I have not had this problem with either of the 2 1430s that I have used. They require more cleaning cycles than I’m used to, but that may be due to running pigment inks in a printer designed for dyes. The think that I like so much about it is that the smaller droplet size compared to the 3880 and other larger printers really does seem to make a small but visible difference in the negative and print.
I have used both Selenium and Carbon inksets, but not Warm-Neutral. Both work well. Carbon gives me a higher Dmax and I relimited the Master quad specifically for it, but it was not a large change. It is possible, but highly unlikely, that the WN inkset could be a factor. If my memory is right, this is the inkset that David Chan was using.
The use of Premium, rather than Ultra Premium could be a factor, but to me the problem seems to be mechanical so I doubt it.
I don’t see any functions in the Epson driver that would be useful if QTR could access them. For example, there is no paper thickness setting. The only setting in the Epson driver that might have an effect on this is Paper Type, but I suspect that only affects ink load and not platen gap. I don’t think there is a way to adjust the platen gap.
Alignment could be an issue. I did an alignment on one of my printers a few months ago (but I don’t remember which one, probably the 3880) on Pictorico film. Ideally, a critical alignment should be done on the same material you will be printing on. I found it damn hard, but not impossible, to read the alignment pattern on film!
I agree with Sandy that these little printers lack the quality control and therefore the consistency between or among machines of the same model that the larger pro models have. My biggest complaints with the 1430, however, are poor paper handling and flimsy construction. Maybe I’ve been lucky as far as banding is concerned. It would certainly be interesting to know how prevalent this problem is.
I appreciate you looking at my nozzle check in detail Jon.
What would constitute bad ink? If it’s not happening over the entire channel is there any way of knowing if it’s bad?
My opaque photo black and Shade 6 inks were first bought on December 29th 2013. I haven’t needed to use them until now as they were not necessary for P2DN with meth 3. They have been kept tightly capped in a cool, dark, dry cupboard in the house.
We do have bounty towels in the UK. I haven’t tried cleaning the underside of the head yet as I thought that was only needed for bad blockages as a last resort. Until it was pointed out I wouldn’t have seen something so minute in a nozzle check that looks good to my untrained eye.
Keith, thanks for cutting me some slack owing to your fair experience of frustration too. I am willing to listen to any advice that will put things right. I was only dismissive of two points, that nozzle gaps and dry environment were causing the problem. Both seemed very unlikely to be the problem. I’ve heard of a clogged nozzle but had never before heard of a deflecting nozzle.
It does add to the frustration when it’s necessary to email someone outside the forum for a set of ideas/solutions to the problem. Suggestions are not always swift forthcoming here. I am very grateful you can corroborate with your personal experiences.
Good to hear banding hasn’t been an issue on both your 1430 printers. Maybe there is something at fault in manufacture as suggested in point 6 about their inferior standards to Pro printers.
David Chow was using warm neutral inks and I imagine QTR. I think he was making his own linearizations rather than canned curves though. Jon might know more. His blog is the reason I first looked into piezography and the reason I’m using WN ink to begin with.
Yourself and sandy both think that using premium instead of ultra is unlikely to be the cause. It wouldn’t hurt me to try some but I’ve now found out that Pictorico’s EU distributer is no longer active.
I’m finding it difficult to read the alignment pattern on paper so it’ll be fun to try on OHP film. Alignment could be a cause of the problem.
In regards to cleaning should I use a gently abrasive left and right motion with the paper towel like in the video? Really didn’t expect the head would be dirty so soon.
Will I have to buy new inks? This is getting to be very expensive for little result.
My head really is spinning at this point. I’ve had very little success with this in over 2 years as is evidenced on the other forum, despite 3 printers and two incarnations of piezo digital negs. That’s why I’m getting so frustrated and impatient.
Ultimately the best success I’ve had so far is with OEM and this is the case with most people I’ve seen.
It’s so disheartening wanting to be making prints and getting stuck infront of a computer and printer wracking my head and firing off emails for hours upon end.
Last post of the night for me, then off to bed. Jon is probably asleep since it’s 2 AM in Vermont.
I can’t address your question about the age of the inks other than to say that it could be an issue. Three years is a long time to have them on the shelf.
Looking for more in the nozzle check than simply the presence of all segments is indeed something that is seldom discussed. Those tiny details that Jon pointed out are difficult to see especially if you don’t know to look for them. I learned something new there too.
I’m sure David was making his own linearizations especially given the complexity of the way he was working. Actually, we all should be making our own linearizations. Canned curves simply do not work for doing what we are doing, at least not at a high level of quality. But they are useful as a starting point from which to customize without having to reinvent the wheel entirely.
It sucks about Pictorico no longer having a source in Europe. I heard from 2 other friends in Europe earlier today about that. I just did a search myself and found nothing other than the now closed website. On the other hand, I ordered some paper from Ruscombe Mill in France a month ago and just learned it is stuck in US customs. I hope things will go better going in your direction.
And one last thing. About the head cleaning, get the paper towel good well saturated with Piezoflush if you have it (don’t use alcohol or anything containing ammonia) slide the head over it, lift and slide it back and forth (left-right) a few times, then let it sit for a while, maybe 30 minutes to an hour to soften any dried on ink, then slide it a few times again and remove. Repeat with another saturate paper towel, but this time there should be much less ink coming off, and no need to let it sit. Do not let it sit longer, especially not over night, since it is possible it could begin to wick ink through the head and drain your entire ink supply. Been there, done that, what a mess!
One missing gap will reveal itself on a Piezography negative or print. If you know what to look for it is obvious. But, Dana can see one missing nozzle on an OEM print. As Keith pointed out, the neg is the least forgiving of all material. A single gap is easily seen. In your case, you have more than 1.
Clean just like in the video. The towel must be absorbent and soft enough to swell so that when you do move the towel back and forth it makes contact. There could be a small bit of lint, dust, flaked coating, or something else that is at or near those two nozzles that the wiper blade can’t remove after the printer performs a head cleaning.
We only suggest a 2 year shelf life, but unofficially Piezography inks can easily last 5 years as long as they are tightly sealed and shaken. Bad ink would prevent all nozzles from shearing off droplets. So the entire nozzle channel would be disrupted and those look quite different than what you would expect. It would appear like the electronics are not working on that channel. But if the electronics are not working the channel also looks like it could be stale ink. So, those two things often look alike.
I set up David Chow’s printer as the development installation which became Piezography2 and he was not able to make his own curves. I made those for him, and he used Warm Neutral inks.
Did I see that you have made perfect negatives with this 1500 earlier, or is this printer like this out of the box?
Finally, since only 7 channels are required for the GO strengthened negs - can you locate a free 4900 near you with one or two bad channels. They are notoriously weak with OEM inks and are discarded like blades of grass from a mower. Piezography and ConeColor inks do really well with these printers. So, you could take someone else’s misery and have a great professional system way more robust than a desktop system. Sell your 1500 as long as it is up to snuff with the OEM carts - and be into a Pro level hardware.
Hi Jon, I don’t think I’ve ever made a perfect neg. Looking through my box none display a level of smoothness I’d be satisfied with. It might be obvious to you or Dana but I haven’t seen any documentation that talks about misfiring nozzles. For the uninitiated how is anyone using this supposed to know what to look for? Keith tested this new system for you correct? Yet it was still new news to him, an experienced user. Less experienced users have got no chance.
You think there could be an electrical problem with this 1500 straight out of the box? Otherwise the whole channel will look disrupted in certain parts if it’s bad ink? Is there any way to tell without me buying more ink? If this head cleaning isn’t successful does that point to bad ink or an electrical problem or is there really no way of telling? You say they look alike.
My ink has been stored vertically, with the bottle standing upright instead of laying on horizontally rather than on its side like suggested. It hasn’t been rotated 90 degrees every month either. Does this mean that the carbon particles have fallen out of solution? Is it possible to get them back in solution by shaking the bottles or carts? Is it irreversible damage to them?
I can probably find a 4900 near me given time for around £50. I’ve seen a few on ebay completed listings. I would still need to buy the refillable carts though, which cost £236 off you. It would make no sense to put potentially stale ink in fresh carts that cost £27 each. So I would need to buy a 110ml bottle of opaque photo black and Shade 6 at the cost of £80. That is £400 without shipping. I have already spent hundreds upon hundreds of pounds on a system that hasn’t worked properly. Literally as ink down the drain/ink pads. Can you understand why I’m upset? It’s been good money after bad and I should’ve pulled the plug on it ages ago.
I can sell probably sell the 1500 at a loss as I no longer have the original carts for it.
I understand you made the QTR curves for David but he still needed to do linearization after. So David higgs, the only other person in the UK I’ve seen use this successfully also made his own correction curves.
This is why Sandy appears to be using a mix of 3 shades of Epson OEM black in 7 channels, because the meth 3 curves are too rigid and only gets you in the ballpark. Yet his testimonial to P2DN is writ pretty large. He’s not even using it now.
I now fully respect that you have to do your own linearization. What you have done with the spectrometry for this is fantastic but worthless if the negs aren’t smooth. Sandy said the smoothest negs he’s got are with the Epson driver, at a slight loss of resolution. I would have probably been better spending the time making my own process adjustment curves for OEM, which seem a lot less problematic. I’ve had way more successes there than with piezo ink. The only commercial platinum print studio in the UK uses OEM too.
Here is my latest nozzle check after cleaning the underside of the head with paper towel as outlined, then pritning an 8 channel flush and two head cleans.
Only you can decide what you think is easier and more comfortable for you. Going back to color negs can be done at any time you wish and there are others out there to seek advice from. But, you may want to get a set of OEM carts and run nozzle checks to see if you can consistently keep this printer perfect. If not, Epson will cheerfully replace it. Keep that option in mind. We recommend always vetting your printer with OEM first for this reason.
Trying unsuccessfully to explain to you what an entire channel is. It is an entire color position not an individual jet. A channel is isolated by color. Your print head has 6 channels. Each channel is made of a multitude of jets. Each jet is responsible for emitting a specific value in that color channel. If it doesn’t white paper or the other inks below it will peak through producing lighter banding. If it deflects it will over print other inks producing darker banding. You’re battling individual jets not an entire channel. And you’re not the first Epson user to battle jets. So with an entire channel that would mean all of the jets in one color are disrupted. And that does not apply in your case. Ink can not be bad in isolated jets. It would affect all the jets in that color position. Color position and channel are interchangeable words.
Yes, that is what I mean. I have old ink in the yellow and black colour positions/channels. I am asking you a simple question which is what colour positions/channels are you seeing deflecting jets in?
